[Galene] Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Galene] Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

Hello,

I have just changed the default codec in Galene to VP9.  This gives better
video quality, and uses SVC for quality reduction, which is better than
the simulcast hack used with VP8.  Please let me know if this change
causes any breakage.

Note that this means that on iOS, Safari 14 or later is now required.
(On desktop Mac OS X too, but on desktop you have a choice, and you should
not be using Safari with Galene in the first place.)

If for any reason you need to revert to VP8, please put the following in
your group configuration:

    "codecs": ["opus", "vp8"]

-- Juliusz

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Dave Taht]

OK, I just updated to git head, and am logged into

https://spacewrt.net:8443/group/bufferbloat/

From where I am in Nicaragua (this server is in atlanta) Via chrome.
Should I see some difference in frame rate (currently showing 33+200)?

I would enjoy catching up with you... (any login, no password)


On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 8:31 AM Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have just changed the default codec in Galene to VP9.  This gives better
> video quality, and uses SVC for quality reduction, which is better than
> the simulcast hack used with VP8.  Please let me know if this change
> causes any breakage.
>
> Note that this means that on iOS, Safari 14 or later is now required.
> (On desktop Mac OS X too, but on desktop you have a choice, and you should
> not be using Safari with Galene in the first place.)
>
> If for any reason you need to revert to VP8, please put the following in
> your group configuration:
>
>     "codecs": ["opus", "vp8"]
>
> -- Juliusz
> _______________________________________________
> Galene mailing list -- galene@lists.galene.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to galene-leave@lists.galene.org



-- 
Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Dave Taht]

Ok, well, I tested it briefly with a fella named eric, and on his
safari it did not work. Is there a way to tell what codec is
negotiated?

He also said high quality audio was able to pick up harmonics off my
guitar, which ws nice.

I will do a fresh git pull and rebuild later. Off to the beach!

On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 9:04 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK, I just updated to git head, and am logged into
>
> https://spacewrt.net:8443/group/bufferbloat/
>
> From where I am in Nicaragua (this server is in atlanta) Via chrome.
> Should I see some difference in frame rate (currently showing 33+200)?
>
> I would enjoy catching up with you... (any login, no password)
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 8:31 AM Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have just changed the default codec in Galene to VP9.  This gives better
> > video quality, and uses SVC for quality reduction, which is better than
> > the simulcast hack used with VP8.  Please let me know if this change
> > causes any breakage.
> >
> > Note that this means that on iOS, Safari 14 or later is now required.
> > (On desktop Mac OS X too, but on desktop you have a choice, and you should
> > not be using Safari with Galene in the first place.)
> >
> > If for any reason you need to revert to VP8, please put the following in
> > your group configuration:
> >
> >     "codecs": ["opus", "vp8"]
> >
> > -- Juliusz
> > _______________________________________________
> > Galene mailing list -- galene@lists.galene.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to galene-leave@lists.galene.org
>
>
>
> --
> Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos



-- 
Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[eric_G]

Hello there, I am the tester Dave mentioned :)

So, no image/sound on Safari 16.5.1 on MacOS 13.4.1.
Worked well on Firefox.
Eric


> Le 9 juil. 2023 à 17:16, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
> Ok, well, I tested it briefly with a fella named eric, and on his
> safari it did not work. Is there a way to tell what codec is
> negotiated?
> 
> He also said high quality audio was able to pick up harmonics off my
> guitar, which ws nice.
> 
> I will do a fresh git pull and rebuild later. Off to the beach!
> 
> On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 9:04 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> OK, I just updated to git head, and am logged into
>> 
>> https://spacewrt.net:8443/group/bufferbloat/
>> 
>> From where I am in Nicaragua (this server is in atlanta) Via chrome.
>> Should I see some difference in frame rate (currently showing 33+200)?
>> 
>> I would enjoy catching up with you... (any login, no password)
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 8:31 AM Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I have just changed the default codec in Galene to VP9.  This gives better
>>> video quality, and uses SVC for quality reduction, which is better than
>>> the simulcast hack used with VP8.  Please let me know if this change
>>> causes any breakage.
>>> 
>>> Note that this means that on iOS, Safari 14 or later is now required.
>>> (On desktop Mac OS X too, but on desktop you have a choice, and you should
>>> not be using Safari with Galene in the first place.)
>>> 
>>> If for any reason you need to revert to VP8, please put the following in
>>> your group configuration:
>>> 
>>>    "codecs": ["opus", "vp8"]
>>> 
>>> -- Juliusz
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Galene mailing list -- galene@lists.galene.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to galene-leave@lists.galene.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Galene mailing list -- galene@lists.galene.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to galene-leave@lists.galene.org

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> So, no image/sound on Safari 16.5.1 on MacOS 13.4.1.

It looks to me like yet another autoplay issue.  If the browser didn't
support VP9, you'd get a big error message with a negotiation failure.

Can you confirm that it works in

  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/

and does not work in

  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/

?

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[eric_G]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 803 bytes --]


>  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/
> 
> and does not work in
> 
>  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/


This is the same address right?


I tried https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/ and https://galene.org:8443/group/public/

Both worked but I had to press the play button to see the video stream


> Le 9 juil. 2023 à 18:32, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> a écrit :
> 
>> So, no image/sound on Safari 16.5.1 on MacOS 13.4.1.
> 
> It looks to me like yet another autoplay issue.  If the browser didn't
> support VP9, you'd get a big error message with a negotiation failure.
> 
> Can you confirm that it works in
> 
>  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/
> 
> and does not work in
> 
>  https://galene.org:8443/group/public-vp8/
> 
> ?


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1674 bytes --]

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> Both worked but I had to press the play button to see the video

Okay, so it's an autoplay issue, not a codec issue.  Thanks for your help,
I'll see if I can find a Mac.

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Tim Panton]

From our experience the deal with autoplay on safari is that you can only successfully call play from a click. The exception is when a video is muted.

If you are careful you can use the same click as you used to request mic access. 

I have honestly found chrome harder to debug on this, at least safari is deterministic, without the covert ‘is this YouTube?’ Algo.

Sent from my iPad

> On 9 Jul 2023, at 17:56, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Both worked but I had to press the play button to see the video
> 
> Okay, so it's an autoplay issue, not a codec issue.  Thanks for your help,
> I'll see if I can find a Mac.
> _______________________________________________
> Galene mailing list -- galene@lists.galene.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to galene-leave@lists.galene.org

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> From our experience the deal with autoplay on safari is that you can
> only successfully call play from a click.

Galene creates videos asynchronously, as people join and leave the group.
We cannot require a click everytime somebody joins.

There's an (undocumented?) hack in Safari, which allows autoplay if a page
holds a reference to a microphone or webcam stream.  So what we do is that
we keep a reference to a microphone stream throughout a session.  That
seems to work on iPad, so I'm surprised it doesn't work on desktop.

(Thankfully, we don't need to do that on other browsers, since users like
the ability to follow a lecture on Galene without being required to grant
microphone access.  Thanks to Safari's "security" features, videoconferencing
software can spy on you.)

-- Juliusz

[Galene] Re: Heads up: default video codec is now VP9

[Tim Panton]

> On 10 Jul 2023, at 10:04, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> 
>> From our experience the deal with autoplay on safari is that you can
>> only successfully call play from a click.
> 
> Galene creates videos asynchronously, as people join and leave the group.
> We cannot require a click everytime somebody joins

You don’t need that - I think - if you have at least one <audio> or <video> tag playing already.
The problem crops up when that drops to zero.

> .
> 
> There's an (undocumented?) hack in Safari, which allows autoplay if a page
> holds a reference to a microphone or webcam stream.  So what we do is that
> we keep a reference to a microphone stream throughout a session.  That
> seems to work on iPad, so I'm surprised it doesn't work on desktop.

I’m not surprised - the iOS implementation is much closer to the hardware,  it allocates actual hardware resources on demand.
whereas the Mac one seems to have a multiplexing layer over the hardware which isolates things somewhat.

> 
> (Thankfully, we don't need to do that on other browsers, since users like
> the ability to follow a lecture on Galene without being required to grant
> microphone access.  Thanks to Safari's "security" features, videoconferencing
> software can spy on you.)

I think you can achieve the same thing by playing silent audio or ‘hold music' into a media tag. (Keeping the playing tags > zero) 
What you are seeing is that creating an echo cancelling mic session also allocates a playable output channel and so satisfies the criteria.

You still need a user click on chrome to activate play - but only for the first few sessions - which is a nightmare to test.

T.

> 
> -- Juliusz
>